Rontini Submarine BBS : History of the Tolling of the Boats? http://RontiniSubmarineBBS.com/ Copyright (c) 2006-2013 Web Wiz Forums - All Rights Reserved. Mon, 14 Sep 2026 03:25:59 +0000 Wed, 04 May 2016 11:41:35 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Web Wiz Forums 11.04 360 RontiniSubmarineBBS.com/RSS_post_feed.asp?TID=2222 <![CDATA[Rontini Submarine BBS]]> http://RontiniSubmarineBBS.com/forum_images/Rontini_2021_5.gif http://RontiniSubmarineBBS.com/ <![CDATA[History of the Tolling of the Boats? : Thanks for lightening it up, Gary....]]> http://RontiniSubmarineBBS.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2222&PID=8161&title=history-of-the-tolling-of-the-boats#8161 Author: gerry
Subject: 2222
Posted: 04 May 2016 at 11:41am

Thanks for lightening it up, Gary. Maybe we needed that .

This *is* a serious subject though, one that many of us are obviously passionate about. In the end, it seems that different groups do the ceremony in different ways. I don't think any group who has the honor of doing a ceremony would intentionally disrespect any boats or crews - if they don't use the same list as another group, I'd guess it would be more out of misinterpretation or misunderstanding.  While that is unfortunate and ideally it would be uniform across all groups doing the ceremony, I think (my opinion) the important thing is that they are doing SOMETHING to honor, acknowledge and remember those men and their boats. 

Had they been lost with loss of life, should T1 and NR-1 be included? I say, yes, absolutely.  Regardless of actual commissioning status. Even if the instruction said "Commissioned" and not "under US Flag", still yes! Because... the INTENTION of the ceremony is much more significant than the literal interpretation of the "policy". Mostly because I don't need a "policy" that tells me who I can render honors to or who I can mourn. 

I think we all have pretty strong beliefs and opinions on this, and it's healthy to discuss or opinions, but I don't think we're so far apart that we need to argue about them. 
]]> Wed, 04 May 2016 11:41:35 +0000 http://RontiniSubmarineBBS.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2222&PID=8161&title=history-of-the-tolling-of-the-boats#8161 <![CDATA[History of the Tolling of the Boats? : ]]> http://RontiniSubmarineBBS.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2222&PID=8158&title=history-of-the-tolling-of-the-boats#8158 Author: GaryKC
Subject: 2222
Posted: 04 May 2016 at 8:35am

]]> Wed, 04 May 2016 08:35:46 +0000 http://RontiniSubmarineBBS.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2222&PID=8158&title=history-of-the-tolling-of-the-boats#8158 <![CDATA[History of the Tolling of the Boats? : oldsubs wrote:...Nuff said---logging...]]> http://RontiniSubmarineBBS.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2222&PID=8156&title=history-of-the-tolling-of-the-boats#8156 Author: SaltiDawg
Subject: 2222
Posted: 04 May 2016 at 8:13am

Originally posted by oldsubs oldsubs wrote:

...

Nuff said---logging off


Incredible!

I went to the USSVI site to see what the criterion actually is.  (As opposed to what has been posted above.)

https://www.ussvi.org/Documents/Online_Manuals_M-C_Manual.pdf

I see nowhere that being commissioned is a requirement. 

I do see:

" The list only accounts submarines that were lost while under US flag during the stated period.

At the time of this writing, using the criteria above and expanding the time to cover the entire history of our submarine force, a corrected total for our submarine losses may be obtained."



Edited by SaltiDawg - 04 May 2016 at 8:52am]]> Wed, 04 May 2016 08:13:55 +0000 http://RontiniSubmarineBBS.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2222&PID=8156&title=history-of-the-tolling-of-the-boats#8156 <![CDATA[History of the Tolling of the Boats? : Like I said---it is our list and...]]> http://RontiniSubmarineBBS.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2222&PID=8154&title=history-of-the-tolling-of-the-boats#8154 Author: oldsubs
Subject: 2222
Posted: 04 May 2016 at 8:04am

Like I said---it is our list and we are free to include what we wish.  So if T-1 had gone down with loss of life and I were running a Tolling of The Boats event--it would be included.  Besides the meaning of 'commissioned' in terms of US Naval Ships has changed over the years --- so we can also!!

Nuff said---logging off
]]> Wed, 04 May 2016 08:04:33 +0000 http://RontiniSubmarineBBS.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2222&PID=8154&title=history-of-the-tolling-of-the-boats#8154 <![CDATA[History of the Tolling of the Boats? : Enjoyed your thoughtful post.However,...]]> http://RontiniSubmarineBBS.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2222&PID=8153&title=history-of-the-tolling-of-the-boats#8153 Author: SaltiDawg
Subject: 2222
Posted: 04 May 2016 at 7:57am

Enjoyed your thoughtful post.

However, "In answer to the question of NR-1 and T-1.  Of course they would be included in a "Tolling of the Boats" if lost with all hands.  To do otherwise would serve not good purpose."

Not according to the posts above,  The NR-1 and T-1 were not commissioned boats.  (The T-1 had one torpedo tube, the NR-1 none.) Also the tragic loss of a new construction boat would not involve a commissioned boat.








Edited by SaltiDawg - 04 May 2016 at 7:58am]]> Wed, 04 May 2016 07:57:53 +0000 http://RontiniSubmarineBBS.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2222&PID=8153&title=history-of-the-tolling-of-the-boats#8153 <![CDATA[History of the Tolling of the Boats? : A number of years ago I wrote...]]> http://RontiniSubmarineBBS.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2222&PID=8152&title=history-of-the-tolling-of-the-boats#8152 Author: oldsubs
Subject: 2222
Posted: 04 May 2016 at 7:32am

A number of years ago I wrote an essay in which I expanded the list of 52 submarines 'lost' during the period our involvement in WWII, 7 December 1945 to 2 September 1945, into our entire history starting in 1900.  I used the same criteria used by USSVI WWII in devising their list.  This essay was an exercise at a time where there was heated and vocal argument by some members of USSVI WWII that inclusion of Thresher and Scorpion would somehow 'dilute' the memory of those WWII boats lost in 'combat'. 

The core criteria used by the list of 52 was that the boat was forcefully and unexpectedly removed from the fleet while it was 'in commission' and later decommissioned as an administrative task without formal ceremony.  The expansion made the list number 65 boats by my count.  During declared wars were 53 and at other periods 12. 

Is the list complete?  Well that depends on how you want to count.  Is the list fair?  No, it is not.  Some boats were lost without loss of life and with other criteria might be removed from the list.  An example of this is the WWII Darter.  However to remove this boat would be hurtful and totally unnecessary.  Another example is the A-7 in which the entire crew died but the boat was not 'lost'.  How do you treat this incident?

The bottom line is this.  The list used for a 'Tolling of the Boats" ceremony is OUR list.  Those setting up the ceremony decide what is on it and what might not be.  Some places include the Nathaniel Greene which was decommissioned, in a ceremony, after a grounding and Bonefish which suffered a catastrophic fire with loss of life but was not 'lost' as such.  The same tolling does not include the WWII submarine Salmon which upon return to port was declared a 'constructive total loss' and decommissioned (with ceremony).  It is in my estimation just fine because it is OUR list and we, separately and as a group, can decide what to include.  Not to include the traditional 52 core list would not be good.  Not to include boats such as Scorpion, O-9, S-51 and others would not be a good idea either.  To debate whether to include boats such as S-4 would be only serve to cause 'hate and discontent' and be of no purpose.

In answer to the question of NR-1 and T-1.  Of course they would be included in a "Tolling of the Boats" if lost with all hands.  To do otherwise would serve not good purpose. 

The above is my opinion as is the essay of long ago.  Will we ever get it right?  Not as long as we are all boat sailors and given to argue over the most minor points.  Should we make the list 'carved in stone' and make it the only and correct list?  No, not in my opinion.  We should leave it to the group holding the ceremony to decide how to it should be. 
]]> Wed, 04 May 2016 07:32:08 +0000 http://RontiniSubmarineBBS.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2222&PID=8152&title=history-of-the-tolling-of-the-boats#8152 <![CDATA[History of the Tolling of the Boats? : I deleted post.Edited by SaltiDawg...]]> http://RontiniSubmarineBBS.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2222&PID=8151&title=history-of-the-tolling-of-the-boats#8151 Author: SaltiDawg
Subject: 2222
Posted: 04 May 2016 at 7:29am

I deleted post.


Edited by SaltiDawg - 04 May 2016 at 8:32am]]> Wed, 04 May 2016 07:29:27 +0000 http://RontiniSubmarineBBS.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2222&PID=8151&title=history-of-the-tolling-of-the-boats#8151 <![CDATA[History of the Tolling of the Boats? : The T-1 and NR-1 would be included!!!...]]> http://RontiniSubmarineBBS.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2222&PID=8144&title=history-of-the-tolling-of-the-boats#8144 Author: Rontini
Subject: 2222
Posted: 03 May 2016 at 5:37pm

The T-1 and NR-1 would be included!!! Where are you coming from?
 The 593 and 589 were not in combat.  What has combat have to do with it?
]]> Tue, 03 May 2016 17:37:01 +0000 http://RontiniSubmarineBBS.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2222&PID=8144&title=history-of-the-tolling-of-the-boats#8144 <![CDATA[History of the Tolling of the Boats? : I deleted post.Edited by SaltiDawg...]]> http://RontiniSubmarineBBS.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2222&PID=8131&title=history-of-the-tolling-of-the-boats#8131 Author: SaltiDawg
Subject: 2222
Posted: 02 May 2016 at 7:03pm

I deleted post.


Edited by SaltiDawg - 04 May 2016 at 8:33am]]> Mon, 02 May 2016 19:03:54 +0000 http://RontiniSubmarineBBS.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2222&PID=8131&title=history-of-the-tolling-of-the-boats#8131 <![CDATA[History of the Tolling of the Boats? : IMHO, any commissioned U.S. submarine...]]> http://RontiniSubmarineBBS.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2222&PID=8129&title=history-of-the-tolling-of-the-boats#8129 Author: Rontini
Subject: 2222
Posted: 02 May 2016 at 5:15pm

IMHO, any commissioned U.S. submarine with lost of life would be included. 
]]> Mon, 02 May 2016 17:15:54 +0000 http://RontiniSubmarineBBS.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2222&PID=8129&title=history-of-the-tolling-of-the-boats#8129