Rickover Question
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Printed Date: 06 May 2024 at 11:58am
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Topic: Rickover Question
Posted By: Gil
Subject: Rickover Question
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 12:25am
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I've heard that during Admiral Rickover's reign he interviewed every Annapolis grad that went to nuclear submarines. Did it also include any graduates that wanted nuclear surface ships? My era goes back to the late 60's on a diesel. I don't remember ever getting an Ensign right out of the academy. We had a lot of Annapolis officers, but they were at least LTJG when they got to us. What I'm wondering is what happened to graduates that failed the Rickover interview? Would a recent Annapolis graduate that failed his interview be assigned to a diesel, or what were their options? My one experience and interface with a younger junior academy officer left a lot to be desired. During diving watches he'd ask questions, and then tell the senior enlisted men they were incorrect - even if he had been correct I don't think he needed to belittle them, as he seemed to do. He'd also make fun of the stewards and deride them in front of the enlisted. He seemed very immature to me and let us all know that he had been interviewed by Rickover and passed with flying colors. The other officers all seemed fine, so maybe his was an isolated case. I'm wondering if being a recent Annapolis graduate, and passing Rickover's interview, then being assigned to a pre-1950 boat is perceived as failure? I know many enlisted preferred smoke boat duty, over glow boat duty, but did some officers feel the same way? Would a recent Annapolis grad feel a failure for being assigned to a non nuke boat? |
Replies:
Posted By: SaltiDawg
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 6:06am
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In the 1960s Admiral Rickover interviewed ALL Officers that were being
considered for the Nuclear Power Program - submarine or Surface. Not
just USNA applicants. Any applicant that was accepted by the Admiral for Submarines faced 18 months of school - Submarine School, Nuclear Power School, and Prototype. In that era, promotion from Ensign to LTJG was essentially automatic and was at the eighteen months of service point. When reporting to a first boat, a USNA Grad would be recently minted LTJG. ROTC Officers and other sources had a date of rank identical to the USNA Grad and I assume their 18 month requirement for promotion to LTJG would also preclude them being an Ensign when the arrived at their first boat. The Officers going to a surface Nuke presumably would have been still an Ensign when reporting to their first ship. In that era there was no way for an Academy Graduate to enter The Submarine Service except thru the KOG into the Nuclear Program. I'm not sure what you mean by "Would a recent Annapolis grad feel a failure for being assigned to a non nuke boat?" I think that ANYONE entering the Submarine Service in the 1960s would have seen the handwriting on the wall as far as a future in Diesel Boats. It did not take a crystal ball for me, for example, in 1965 to recognize that it would be impossible for me to ascend to Command - the goal of any Submarine Line Officer - by serving in diesel boats. The fact was obvious to all that there would be essentially zero diesel boats to command ten years later. Not sure how to understand your, "We had a lot of Annapolis officers..." and "My one experience and interface with a younger junior academy officer left a lot to be desired." I'm sure we all served with people we felt were great and also people we felt were jerks.... Officer and Enlisted. In those days a majority of the Wardroom was non-academy on the boats I served on - both Nuke and diesel. I don't believe any of my boat COs were Academy Grads. EDIT: An Officer (USNA or other source) that failed the Rickover Interview would have to seek another career path - surface ships, aviation, engineering duty, etc. Remember also that ALL potential Nuke Officers underwent the interview process. That would include some Nuke enlisted men. I do not know what their options were if they flunked the interview process. I do know some did flunk! |
Posted By: Sewer Pipe Snipe
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 8:09am
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According to one instructor at Nuke Power School he was there because he did not have the degree Rickover wanted for the Boats, but did have the smarts and was proving himself. I believe CMDR Charles Beale was a Merchant Marine Grad. Just something in the back of my mind that might be wrong. He was Whity Macks EX O before coming to Von Steuben if memory is correct. ------------- Walt, Had I done everything right throughout my life, the World wouldn't have noticed. |
Posted By: SaltiDawg
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 8:24am
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I believe I also served with a King's Point Grad. I suspect the issue with the School Instructor was not with his degree... I served with liberal arts majors, at least one art major, and I suspect all manor of other fields of study. My first Nuke CO was S.A. White. He was the consummate Nuke - rising to be COMSUBLANT and later Four Stars. "he pursued his Bachelor of Arts in International Relations, while simultaneously pursuing his Masters in Political Science. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_A._White" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_A._White |
Posted By: Gil
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 11:32am
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SaltiDawg wrote:Posted By: Gil
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 11:57am
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Thanks for the detailed explanation - it clears up a lot of questions I had, and some I hadn't thought of until your explanation. Can you tell me what the KOG was - I must have missed that? My question regarding a recent Annapolis graduate feeling slighted for being assigned to a diesel was just based how it was always implied by people around me that nukes got whatever they wanted to the detriment of diesels. Also I thought we had four academy officers on the Pickerel. I had assumed that our XO and both COs during my stint were academy - maybe that assumption was incorrect based on your response? I |
Posted By: 609EM1
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 12:08pm
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KOG.......Kindly Old Gentleman......Admiral Rickover ------------- Finns may have faults,but being wrong isn't one of them. Bugara SS-331 '62-'63 Sam Houston SSBN-609 '65-'69 |
Posted By: SaltiDawg
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 12:26pm
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Gil Pickerel being a Diesel Boat likely had a mixture of non-nuke Academy, ROTC, LDO, etc. An SSN boat in those days would have had all nukes (Plus later a Supply Type.) There was also the occasional LDO and WO. I never happened to serve with one on a boat. (Later as Repair Boss on Frank Cable I came to know and respect them BIG TIME.) We had been talking about new academy grads going to Nukes only. Presumably your CO/XO were from the 1950s and were therefore non-nukes. KOG was an affectionate/sarcastic nickname for Adm Rickover. KOG = Kindly Old Gentleman. (Certainly never said to his face!) It is my sincere belief that at the Wardroom Level in those days, nobody looked down on Diesel Boats or looked down on Nukes. The handwriting was on the wall - Diesels were going away, Nukes coming in. We had lot's of SS/SSN banter at Happy Hours at the O Club at SUBASE NLON in those days. But it was never mean-spirited - just teasing banter. It has been only since I came to our forum that I have sensed a certain animosity on the part of DBFers toward Nukes... not sure if the animosity is against the men that manned them or whether it is more fundamentally resentment of the inevitable replacement of the diesels boats with Nuke boats. |
Posted By: SaltiDawg
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 12:32pm
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Gil, Also, it now occurs to me that a few Academy guys got stashed on Diesel Boats right out of the Academy. This was not a career assignment, jut a place to "stash" them while waiting for Sub School, one Rhodes Scholar.... but this was quite rare. More often then not, these guys did not have enough time to earn their Dolphins. Also in the era you ask about, there were non-Academy Officers on the diesels that applied for the Nuke Program and went to see the KOG. My first Mentor and good friend, Chuck Bean, had qualified on Corporal, applied to be a Nuke, and afterward was on his first Nuke with me. Jerry |
Posted By: PaulR
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 1:21pm
one Rhodes Scholar ENS G.A.K. perhaps? ------------- Paul http://ss-407.net" rel="nofollow">  ETN2(SS) 63-67 |
Posted By: SaltiDawg
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 1:44pm
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Paul, I really don't remember. I had a Classmate that was a Rhodes Scholar - Ron Bancroft - but I do not believe it was him... Jerry |
Posted By: Runner485
Date Posted: 04 May 2016 at 1:59pm
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I served with an academy jg who was interviwed by the KOG back in ( I think) in late 61 or '62. I don't know what happened, but later in his career he came back to SubRon6 to Captain the Grampus and retired as a 4 striper. His father was a rear admiral when he retired which surprised me that Mike didn't make a rear admiral too. I realize one has nothing to do with the other, but I did find it strange, much later, when I found out at a reunion. ------------- DBF Joe SS485,CVA42 Holland Club Mid-Atlantic Base |
Posted By: 610ET
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 4:23pm
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On 610B we had two NEESEP officers who weren't nukes. There was a career path to go to the Weapons/Operation Departments. Depending on how long they had been enlisted their terminal grade was O3/O4 if they were only doing 20 years. One of them served two years on SS right after commissioning then came to 610. He later went to 640 as NAV and then commanded ARD 5 as LCDR. Total service was 21 years. I wonder if as non-nukes but on a nuke boat they would have been interviewed by Rickover? |
Posted By: Palm Bay Ken
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 5:30pm
I served as Weapons Officer in Seadragon (SSN584) as a non-nuke in 79/81. I had been an RO before NESEP. When I got message orders from Gudgeon to Seadragon, they were to the SS584. I was later told that ALL message traffic with SSN in the address was routed to the KOG. ------------- Ken Wiltshire K4HBE SS-206/SS-523/S1C/SSN-578/Ole Miss(NESEP)/DLG-14/SS-563/SS-567/SSN-584/CSS6/NavSafCen/ York County Public Schools/Virginia Beach City Public Schools/Retired |
Posted By: SaltiDawg
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 7:14pm
No. Some Non-Nuke billets elsewhere were subject to review by the KOG. Repair Boss on a Tender, for example. |
Posted By: 610ET
Date Posted: 10 May 2016 at 7:39pm
Would that officer have to appear for the review? |
Posted By: SaltiDawg
Date Posted: 11 May 2016 at 6:47am
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Some NESEP Officers, including at least some that had been Nuke Enlisteds, applied for Nuclear Power and were therefore interviewed by the KOG. Bill Forrester (Frosty) was a NESEP Nuke Enlisted and then accepted as a Nuke Officer. He was lost with Scorpion. I am aware of a couple of other NESEPs that were Officer Nukes. Someone else might know if ALL NUKE Enlisteds in NESEP were automatially required to be interviewed. I don't know. Same for Sub Qualified enlisted NESEPs, I don't know if they were automatically considered to have volunteered for Submarines as an Officer. |
Posted By: Palm Bay Ken
Date Posted: 11 May 2016 at 12:37pm
I had been an RO before NESEP. ETC(SS) prior to OCS. Never a murmur about seeing the KOG. Asked for Subs after commissioning, but told I was too old and spent 2 years as MPA/Assistant ENG on a DLG. Then the SS detailer called and practically begged me to come back to the boats. This was in '67. Served in Tang & Gudgeon, and then got orders to Seadragon as WEPS. After a tour on CSS6 Staff, fast forward to '75. I was at the Safety Center in Norfolk and got the call that I was going to be WEPS on the Ohio. Put in my papers that afternoon and retired on 12/1/75. Met the KOG one time in '66. Lived across the street from his nephew in Norfolk when the KOG visited him. The nephew didn't mention that I was navy, and neither did I. ------------- Ken Wiltshire K4HBE SS-206/SS-523/S1C/SSN-578/Ole Miss(NESEP)/DLG-14/SS-563/SS-567/SSN-584/CSS6/NavSafCen/ York County Public Schools/Virginia Beach City Public Schools/Retired |