Expert Rifleman???
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Topic: Expert Rifleman???
Posted By: SaltiDawg
Subject: Expert Rifleman???
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2018 at 10:22am
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When I was Gun Boss I had a standard speel when Qualifying a guy to Stand Topside Watch with a 45 on his hip. It included a talk about responsibility and an admonition that if he ever saw that 45 headed over the side in to the drink, he'd better GD well be following it. Never thought of the situation described in the below Article! https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/07/29/sailor-who-shot-himself-sub-previously-removed-gun-list.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/07/29/sailor-who-shot-himself-sub-previously-removed-gun-list.html
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Replies:
Posted By: c stafford
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2018 at 10:54am
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When I went on active duty and was assigned topside watch, I was told here is your 45 and keep a tight watch. I never even checked to see if the gun was loaded. No one verified that I knew how to use the 45. I was given a few hours training several years before during Reserve Sub School. ------------- Chris USS Barbel, MM2(SS) USSVI Life Blueback Base, Life San Diego Base, Life Holland Club |
Posted By: SaltiDawg
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2018 at 11:04am
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We required Small Arms certification, including range shooting. Part of the Watch Relief and Stationing Procedure was to verify Weapon was safe. This happened to be an SSN AT SUBASE NLON in the 60s and early 70s. It was the same way on my second Diesel Boat. I don't think we had a topside watch on the first, the T-1 in Key West. In fact, I'm not sure we had a 45. lol
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Posted By: FTGC(SS) Lane
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2018 at 12:32pm
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On my first two boat, between '71 and '76 all were had to do was fam fire the .45. About '80 in PacFlt we were required to qualify with .45 and M16 and fam fire the riot gun. There was an incident on a visiting boomer in Pearl where a QM2 relieved a topside watch and then threatened suicide. We were parked at S9 within sight and range of that boat. I directed the topside watch to remain safely behind the sail. They managed to talk the sailor down but not before he discharged 5 rounds into the harbor.
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Posted By: Tom McNulty
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2018 at 2:45pm
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Maybe it was a choice of the CO. We were issued the .45 with a partial magazine load of 5 rounds. The magazine was not inserted in the weapon until needed. ------------- SSBN599B,SSBN600B,SSBN611G USNR Beaumont, TX, USSVI Life Member Mid Atlantic Base Holland Club |
Posted By: Gil
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2018 at 4:42pm
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I also only received 45 training at Hunters Point submarine school before active duty. I think we shot and had fire training at Treasure Island. |
Posted By: Sewer Pipe Snipe
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2018 at 5:37pm
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When we came back to the States, Weapons Station Charleston, we took the Thompson's, the 45's and the M1 Carbine's to Paris Island on the Navy Bus. We brought everyone we could spare along to allow them to fire them. That was the first time most of the Crew ever really fired the weapons. ------------- Walt, Had I done everything right throughout my life, the World wouldn't have noticed. |
Posted By: olded
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2018 at 8:04pm
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We got a chance to fire the Thompsons in the 615 boat, many years ago. Surfaced somewhere in the Atlantic, rigged safety lines on the stbd sail plane, and killed a lot of whitecaps, under the very watchful eye of the TM's. ------------- Old Ed |
Posted By: Runner485
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2018 at 8:23pm
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I was being trained as a topside watch, by the topside watch. He talked about all the aspects of the .45. I was very impressed by his knowledge. As he handed me the weapon, he had me describe all the safeties and how to operate them. At some point I asked him what this button was for, as I pressed the button, which ejected the magazine, fortunately for me on the deck. It never slipped in between the deck slats. The topside watch jumped on that thing so fast I thought he was gonna bury himself into the teak decking slats. He grabbed the gun from my hands, shakily slammed the magazine home and declared training is over for the night. We both breathed a sigh of relief... We the crew, use to fire all the weapons while at sea.... ------------- DBF Joe SS485,CVA42 Holland Club Mid-Atlantic Base |
Posted By: Gil
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2018 at 12:35pm
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Salt Dawg, Never heard the term Gun Boss before, but then a lot of terms mentioned here are new to me. Was this term used on a boat, and what did it consist of? |
Posted By: SaltiDawg
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2018 at 12:51pm
"Gun Boss" was the term for "Weapon's Officer." Used on each Boat on which I served. "Gun Boss: Weapons Department head." https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary_of_U.S._Navy_slang" rel="nofollow - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary_of_U.S._Navy_slang |
Gil wrote:Posted By: Flapper
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2018 at 2:14pm
In my era (Viet Nam years), 'Weaps' was used by boat crews. During my Westpac carrier cruise, 'Gun Boss' was used. Different strokes for different folks.  ------------- ET1ss Nuke; 1962 - 1973. SSN-588, CVA-63, SSBN-629 BLUE, SSN-669 PLANKOWNER, FICPAC |
Posted By: SaltiDawg
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2018 at 3:13pm
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The "boat crews" I served on during the "Viet Nam Years" used both terms... I never served on a carrier nor on a Westpac cruise. Later on, I was the (Commissioning) "Repair Boss" on Frank Cable. My CO and the Boat COs referred to me as Repair Officer. My 524 people referred to me as Repair Boss, as did the rest of the Tender Crew. |
Posted By: FTGC(SS) Lane
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2018 at 8:35pm
| Whereas I was a GUN Fire Control Tech I used "gun boss", a term I learned in "A" school; and I heard the Wardroom types use "Weps". |
Posted By: SaltiDawg
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2018 at 10:17am
Sounds familiar! For the three years I was on Frank Cable, I don't think I used the Officer's Brow even once. I used the Brow that my "men" used.
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Posted By: gerry
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2018 at 6:40pm
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Speech to the SWS Training Conference, April 12 1990: The U. S. Navy used to fire salutes at three second intervals and the gunner's mates had a cadence they used to time the shots. "If I wasn't a gunner, I wouldn't be here!" "If I wasn't a gunner, I wouldn't be here" I've taught that expression to many of you...it's my way of instilling pride in being a gun boss. We, you and I, represent the corps of submarine force professional gunners. That's a neat title and we are some pretty elite people. When the commanding Officer of an SSBN asks his engineer for advice, it's either because the CO is training the engineer to think, or else the CO hasn't bothered to figure out the answer for himself, but could. When the commanding officer asked the Weapons Officer for advice, the buck stopped there. No one else was going to help with the answer. No one else on board even knew the answer. The professional gun boss had a mystique about his job that the average commanding officer could not comprehend and that the submarine force utterly failed to grasp. Note that I use the past tense when I refer to the professional seaman gunnery officer in submarines. I fear that that era has passed in favor of assigning the billet of Weapons Officer to a generalist who sees it as one more ticket in the path to command. John Prebble, in his historical masterpiece Culloden, understood the mystique of the weaponeer as compared to the generalist. He describe Brevet-Colonel William Belford, Commander of the Train, Royal Regiment of Artillery, who stood at Drumossie Moor the morning of 16 April 1746, by writing that: "He was thirty four years of age and he was not like officers of Foot and Horse to whom military service was often an exciting extension of their social life. He was dedicated to his profession and close-mouthed about his art, believing, like most men who are servants of machines, that they imposed upon him certain spiritual obligations. These he had read when a cadet, as they had been set down by Captain Thomas Binning who asked of a gunner, 'that he be one that feareth God more than his Enemy, that he be Constant and not given to Change, that he be Faithful, True, and Honest'." Being a gunner on board an SSBN encompassed much of that and more. Nothing quite compares to being a true expert in a field when no one else is, and that described the strategic missile gun boss of a few years ago. And what years they were! We lived on the cutting edge of innovation. While the nuclear power side essentially froze its technology between the late 50s and February 1982, the strategic weaponeers pushed forward the frontiers of science. We learned how to deal with new forms of propellant and new concepts in targeting. We developed operating procedures and casualty procedures as each new system came along, while backfitting what we learned into the systems that existed already. We worked hard and we played hard. We had fun doing all this, although some of the humor was at our own expense. I remember DASO in September 1972, when those of us in USS George Bancroft were adjusting to the Poseidon missile. My Assistant Weapons Officer was lying on his back in the equipment section of a launch candidate doing a close out inspection when he decided to grab a bundle of confined detonating fuse and to shake it to ensure it was tightly secured. It moved slightly. Simultaneously and coincidentally, the ship lost shore power and those events common to a 640 class loss of shore power occurred --the lights went out momentarily as the ABT shifted and the breather valves all failed to automatic -- permitting the residual air in the header to make a loud bang as it vented into the tube. The AWeps knew only that, as he grabbed the fusing, darkness and a loud bang had occurred. He never quite recovered from his fear that he had started a twenty five hundred mile ride downrange. We, the professional corps of submarine gunners, suffered some unreadiness due to our equipment, and we suffered some due to our stupidity. But -- we never had an accident or significant incident. Most importantly, we kept the free world free. That sounds like flag waving, but it's true. Glasnost, which marks the start of what may be a new era of peace, was made possible by those of us in this audience and our predecessors, who bored holes in the ocean while the diplomats and the forces of history worked towards today's developments. We can, and we should be proud of that. We showed up at a time when our country needed us, and we leave as our job winds down. We must not concern ourselves that we leave as unknowns. Tell me the name of any gunner in the U. S. Navy in any year of the 1850s. Tell me the name of any gunner in the U. S. Navy in any year of the 1920s. Our predecessors kept the peace, did their job, and retired unheroically. I hope there is honor in preserving the peace, even if there is little glory in doing it. "What did you do in the war, Daddy?" "My son, I kept there from being one." If I wasn't a gunner, I wouldn't be here. I'm proud of that. I'm proud of having had a career where I can say that I tried to "fear God more than my Enemy, be constant and not given to change, be faithful, true, and honest." We, the professional submarine weapons officers, are about to go away -- victims of changing times, changing attitudes, and a system that works too well. "Morituri te salutant" -- We, who are about to die, salute you. So who gets to take over now? There really is an answer and it's an answer that has worked in the Navy since John Paul Jones. When all else fails, when the chips are really down, go find a Chief Petty Officer. Go find someone who really is a specialist, both technically and managerially. Tell him to carry forth the torch. Ask the Chief. We have never expected our communicators to copy Morse Code or be able to repair a teletype. Our sonar officers rarely have had the ability to put on a headset and derive meaningful information therefrom. Few food service officers know how to cook. We've assigned those billets to officers whose job it is, and has been, to manage divisions and departments. The officer took care of his men and ensured their well being. He, in turn, required that his organization run smoothly and efficiently. When something didn't work, he stuck his head in enough to satisfy himself that the right people were repairing it and then be ran interference for them while they did the maintenance. The officer, perhaps, was directly responsible for some small aspect of the division's duties, such as crypto custodian in radio, but rarely did he get that intimately involved. So who did? Ask the Chief! And that's where we must consider ourselves to be today in the strategic weapons world. Our weapons officers, henceforth, will be officers passing through billets. If there is to be a cadre of professional gun bosses in the future, the group will be so small that many of you will never meet one. The mantle, the honor, the glory, and the work of the professional gunner has moved back down where it probably always belonged -- to the Chiefs' Quarters. Perhaps, in five years, some Chief will be standing here at the podium. Hopefully, he'll be discussing the role of the professional gunner. He'll be talking of keeping the system on line in the face of difficulties with equipment and personnel. He'll stress that he cannot do his job unless the wardroom lets him know what's required. He'll complain about it no longer being the good ol' days. He'll say, "If I wasn't a gunner, I wouldn't be here!" We need to restructure to make that happen. We need to recognize the reality that the Chiefs must take over a role that they lost, for whatever reason, when the submarine force underwent some fundamental changes in the late 50s and early 60s. Chiefs, and now I am speaking directly to you, you must become the keeper of the flame of professionalism. You must recognize that you are not "twidgets", and you must refuse to let your people think that way. The main battery of a standard hull SSBN is sixteen, 72 inch, 5.85 caliber, single shot, muzzle loading, smoothbores. A Trident II submarine has twenty four, 83 inch, 6.44 caliber, single shot, muzzle loading, smoothbores. You need to know that because every gunner knows his main armament. You may be aiming them with computers; you may be firing them with gas generators instead of silk bags of cordite; but you are still gunners; the honorable carriers of that title. The minute that you let your troops believe that they are simply twidgets, that's the minute you stop being a professional, with wide ranging responsibilities and traditions and become just another routine guy with a routine job. Your heritage comes from the gunners of the Royal Navy, described by A. R. Hall as: "Recruited from the hard service of the seas, . . . or a line of martial ancestors, such men as these, with the intellectual cream of other crafts, were the aptest interpreters of science and the discoverers of its utilitarian charms." I say to you, "Morituri te salutant." Now it is your turn to say back to me, "If I wasn't a gunner, I wouldn't be here!" I challenge you to figure out how to operate the SSBN weapons system as the professionals you are. I challenge you to develop the curricula and the dogma that will permit the chief petty officer to reclaim the role of the professional seaman gunner. You won't get the officer corps to help -- we're history. We did our job, and now we're virtually gone. The job, Chiefs, is yours. I say to you, "Morituri te salutant". But I also say, "pass the word from gun to gun, this will be a firing run!" Go get'em -- and good luck. Credits: Captain Melville H. Lyman, U. S. Navy 12 April 1990 ------------- MT2/SS USS Simon Bolivar - SSBN 641 (B) USS Henry M. Jackson - SSBN 730 (B) USSVI - Wyoming Base |
Posted By: Gil
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2018 at 6:48pm
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Never heard the term before. During my hitch our Weapons Officer was Lt. Geer. He came on board just before me and he and his wife seemed to be barely 21. I can't imagine referring to him as Gun Boss, he and his wife were great people and fun to talk to when he had the duty at Pearl. Judging by what I've gathered from this site my only boat (Pickerel) seemed to be lacking in formal terms mentioned here, either that or my memory is worse than I thought. |
Posted By: FTGC(SS) Lane
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2018 at 8:48pm
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Over the twenty years I was in terminologies and phrases required changed. Things like topside announcing a senior command officer arrival/departure went from "Sub Pac Arriving" to "Commander Submarine Force Pacific Arriving". Why? I don't know or really care.The facts are that things change. Smoking everywhere to smoking in one small space to no smoking. Watch length 4 to 6 to 8 hours. On my last boat the Skipper's arrival in the control room was announced, again why I don't know but it was done for more than one skipper. I went from my first boat (Pac Flt) where setting "Condition Bravo" was discontinued shortly after my reporting aboard to another boat (Lant Flt) that still used it. I happily went back to Pac Flt, after two plus years ashore, and no Condition Bravo. The "A" school at Bainbridge had a Warrant Officer in charge. He was addressed as "Gunner Jones". He was the "Gun Boss" and that term for the officer in charge of the Weapons Department stuck with me. But I did use both "weps" and "gun boss" (along with other phrases that were acceptable in polite company*) when talking to my department head. *one officer's last name was Griffin. I usually called him "Griff", unless I was not happy with him then it was "LT. Griffin". He noticed that and pointed it out to me one day. I thought about it, realized that was what I did so I had to agree with him.
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Posted By: gerry
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2018 at 9:29pm
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Weps and I were on a single name basis. He called me "Smith" and I called him "Sir" (or "Commander" if I wanted something from him). My first MTC was "Eddy". He caught a lot of crap from the goat locker for letting us call him by his first name, but we'd served with him for a couple of years before he got promoted. The COB on 641 was "COB" or "Master Chief" while in uniform, but demanded to be called "Herb" when we were on the beach. My second Chief was the sort to have his name legally changed to "Chief" if they'd have let him. I called him "Mark" just to irritate him. ------------- MT2/SS USS Simon Bolivar - SSBN 641 (B) USS Henry M. Jackson - SSBN 730 (B) USSVI - Wyoming Base |
Posted By: FTGC(SS) Lane
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2018 at 10:10am
| One of my troops insisted on calling me "Snookums". |
Posted By: Johnbay
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2018 at 9:05pm
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Guess that fits, Mikey Pooh! |